Prisons: Safety /House of Lords/ 3 Mar 2009 : Column 611

Prisons: Safety /House of Lords/ 3 Mar 2009 : Column 611

Baroness Stern: To ask Her Majesty's Government how they plan to respond to the concerns about prison safety set out in the annual report of HM Chief Inspector of Prisons published on 28 January.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, we welcome this report and, in particular, the recognition of Her Majesty's chief inspector of the progress made over the past year against a difficult background. The detailed individual inspections carried out by HMCIP provide valuable insight into a range of key operational issues. The issues set out in the report have all previously been raised as a result of individual prison inspections. Each inspection report results in a detailed action plan with progress monitored by NOMS senior managers.

Baroness Stern: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. Is he aware of one of the chief inspector's conclusions based on an analysis of 52 inspections; namely, that small prisons perform better than large ones and, in particular, that they are safer? The report says that,

"large prisons are more likely to be unsafe, and to need to rely more on force".

What influence will this evidence have on the Government's plans to build three Titan prisons, each holding 2,500 prisoners?

Lord Bach: My Lords, we are grateful to the inspectorate for bringing this research to our attention. We are currently in discussion with it about this report, but we are not yet in a position to comment on the methodology and the results. With regard to Titans, clusters or large prisons, we will publish the Government's response to the consultation shortly. The response will set out at high level our thinking on large prisons and we will be looking to continue to talk with those interested about how these prisons can be developed to support improved outcomes.

With the caution that the inspector inspected only 52 of the 139 prisons, the noble Baroness will remember that in her opening comments the chief inspector said that the number of self-inflicted deaths has decreased this year from the extremely high level of last year. Among other points, she said:

"This year, more than 70% of our assessments, against our four tests of safety, respect, purposeful activity and resettlement, were positive".

In other words, the prison was performing at least reasonably well in that area. We take some comfort from that part of the report.

Lord Henley: My Lords, the Minister was a little complacent in his Answer. Does he remember the words used by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons in her report when she said that there is "little room for complacency"? Will the Minister comment on the fact that some 80 of the 139 prisons in England and Wales are seriously overcrowded? What will the Government do about that?

Lord Bach: My Lords, I hope that I was not complacent. Of course overcrowding is wrong. Too many prisons are currently overcrowded and that is why there is a prison-building programme and why we are consulting on ideas about large prisons. I think it is fair to ask the noble Lord sitting opposite exactly what his party-!

Lord Bach: My Lords, I think that I have answered the noble Lord and I now ask him in his turn, although not today, to consider what his party's policies are. If members of his party are so concerned about overcrowding, what precisely do they intend to do about it?

Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, did the noble Lord notice that the section on race and religion in the chief inspector's report stated that the perception of black and minority prisoners about their prison experience is far poorer than that of their white counterparts, particularly in relation to safety? The chief inspector puts this down to a lack of cultural awareness in prisons which are a considerable distance from prisoners' homes. To buttress what the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, said, the chief inspector finds that in local prisons which are nearer to where prisoners live, the trend is reversed, with the percentage of prisoners expressing concern dropping from 59 to 21. Therefore, does the Minister agree that more local, smaller prisons are the only answer when looking across the range of prisoners, irrespective of their sentences?

Lord Bach: My Lords, local prisons are very important, and the inspector makes important points about, and criticisms of, the present system. However, in her introduction to the report, she says:

"Though there is still much to be done ... our prisons are, in general, undoubtedly better-run, more effective and more humane places than they used to be".

I do not think that that is bad.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that on page 20 of the report the chief inspector makes the point that, although more than 50 per cent of all self-injury cases in prisons relate to women, women represent only 5 per cent of the total prison population? Will he give this matter his urgent attention, particularly in the context of assistance in relation to mental health and detoxification, and especially in relation to women under 21?

Lord Bach: My Lords, as always, the noble Lord makes a good point. I take this opportunity to say that, if any noble Lords are interested, immediately after Questions in Committee Room 2 I shall be showing a DVD on working with women prisoners. I strongly invite all noble Lords who are interested in this to come and see it. I have watched it and it is very moving. It makes a point about the particular problems relating to women prisoners. Of course, we have the huge advantage of the report of my noble friend Lady Corston, which we are in the process of implementing.

The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, does the Minister understand the frustration felt by IPP prisoners who have served their sentences but still find themselves in prison because no courses are available for them? Does he see that that frustration adds to the tension in already overcrowded prisons and makes them less safe places to be?

Lord Bach: My Lords, I know that prisoners serving indeterminate sentences have lots of frustrations. Indeed, to be fair, the inspector refers to them in her report and the initial legislation in particular. Additional funding was provided for the implementation of offender management in prisons in 2007-08, particularly in relation to indeterminate sentence prisoners, and a further £3 million was made available last year and the year before. However, I am conscious that there are difficulties concerning these prisoners, and that is one reason why we changed the law in relation to them last year.

Lord Elton: My Lords, does the first part of the noble Lord's Answer mean that the Government are now having second thoughts about Titan prisons? If not, and in regard to the growing volume of evidence that they are the wrong answer, why not?

Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord and the House will have to wait. Proper and full consultation has taken place and, as I said, announcements will be made shortly, and perhaps even very shortly.

Source for this message:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldhansrd/text/90303-0001.htm#09030336000490


Comment: It would seem to me that from Lord Bachside's response that the government intends to go ahead with this madness to build Titan prisons regardless of the outcome of the consultation exercise!